Chambersburg Borough Council decides nativity scene must be removed from Memorial Square fountain area

Our own Carl Silverman was involved in talking with the council over this. He advocated for an equal display of an atheist and respectable sign that would honor our fallen atheist troops, as it is a war memorial.

Rather than allow any viewpoint other than the Christian one, they opted to remove all displays. Carl pointed out to them that this may amount to viewpoint discrimination, as they've allowed the Christian display since '95, and he would be checking into our legal options.

Cor

rections from Carl regarding the article – The article says “plans to seek legal action” – This is not quite true, as he said we “plan to seek legal advice”, and that we would not make a decision on legal action until afterwords.

It also claims Carl is the “Director of the Midstate Chapter”. Actually Carl is a member of our Board.

You can read more about the events here:

http://www.publicopiniononline.com/localnews/ci_13854798

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Written by: Brian
November 24th, 2009 in Activism, Atheism, Chambersburg Creche, Church / State Separation, News, Pennsylvania, Press | tags: Borough, Carl Silverman, Chambersburg, Council, Nativity, Removed, Scene

why

Why would you guys care so much about a little nativity scene if it wasnt for the fact that you know that there is a God. You dont care about santa claus

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- http://www.geekexile.com Brian
  
  I think you missed the whole point – We don’t care about the nativity scene. We’d rather it stayed up. What we care about is atheist veterans, and that in this country where all of us should have a voice, that that voice isn’t discriminated against.
  
  It was the Chambersburg Council that decided to remove ALL displays.
  
  Like or Dislike: 0 0
why

Then why dont you guys honor the soldiers with a banner in your yard like people do with the nativity scene? One day you guys will wake up to the sad reality that God does care and he would rather you all believe now then when it is to late

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http://www.geekexile.com Brian

Why don’t you honor your God by posting the creche in your yard and leaving the public square alone? If one group is allowed to express their religious freedom, it’s not freedom if every or any other group is denied.

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Lbrewer42

The problem here is that we have come to the ludicrous concept that everything displayed needs to be acceptable to all people. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people want the nativity scene up – and it is a guarantee that the people whose blood was shed to preserve the American way of life also would have wanted the scene there. How can I say this? Simple – the vast majority of these people were raised in a country where it was the norm to believe in God. Despite what the media says – and what people want to believe – reading the writings of the people who framed this country and the constitution were building it upon Judeo-Chriatian principles. Try as much as you want with modern propaganda to deny this. But the facts from studying the papers of those people will prove otherwise.

So, now, I suppose that if someone comes along who takes offense t he American flag that we will have to remove this also? What if someone is offended by the statue of Ben Franklin on top of the building in the square of Chambersburg? Will we have to remove this also?

Grow up! If you hold an opinion opposite to what the bast majority of people agree on – then be man enough to accept that not everything will be your own way! Either this or move to a country which will allow you to have your own way. The Heritage of the united States is what is being spit on here. America’s Heritage brought us to (once be) the best (personal freedoms, most generous, most opportunities to excel) nation that ever was on the earth. And now our generosity in attitudes is leading us to the point where we allow minorities to strip this way of life from us.

I personally am offended by a humanist philosophy. Does this mean that I am going to go out looking for things that offend me? No – people have a right (at least for now – but not if people such as those causing this problem have their way) to their own beliefs. But with this we must also accept personal responsibility (very non-politically correct term nowadays) and the maturity not to break a system which has obviously benefited more people than any other system mankind ever produced.

If you want to live here and be able to call yourself an American – then you need to be able to also, regardless of your personal desires, respect America’s Heritage. ONLY a person wanting to be blinded of the facts of history will be able to deny what the moral system our Country was founded on produces with respect to any other system that was tried (including humanism – history has proven this always devolves into totalitarian regimes and governments).

Like or Dislike: 0 1
why

If freedom of speech is the true reason you all are doing this then why is it you guys do not go to a town that only puts up a christmas tree or a santa clause but no its just the nativity. You guys only target christianity you do not go after muslims or budhist. If you can honestly tell me that it is just freedom of speech then I want to know why your own Carl Silverman at one time sued the Hagerstown Suns (not a government organization) for there sunday bulletin promotion? When it comes down to it you all know deep inside that God exists. Now you one day everyone will believe its just a question of will you believe now of your own free will or will you wait till you are forced to bow the knee and then be left to an eternal punishment.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
why

If you all are about freedom of speech then why r u moderating what I am typing?

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Confused

Just curious, why is it important for you to post a sign at the same time as the Creche is in the square. Why not ask the borough council to place a sign during the summer. It seems to me that by asking to post something at the same time as the manger scene is on display is really designed to challenge the Creche, and not soley about equal time or representation. If you just wanted to honor athiest soldieres, why can’t that be accomplished at any other time of the year? Is the solstice as important to your group as the Birth of Christ is to Christians?

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http://www.geekexile.com Brian

Unfortunately I don’t sit here all day approving comments – Sometimes I take a night off. I’ve approved everything this morning, we don’t mind open conversation as long as it’s respectful.

I’m not sure why you think that Christianity should have some special lock on the fountain for 7 weeks out of the year. Carl asked for us to post our sign for our holiday. According to the first amendment to the constitution of this country, the board has to allow either all religions to use the square, or none. Atheists/nonbelievers make up around 10-15% of the population of this country – There are millions of us out there, many of us do not speak up. He chose to speak up.

You are free to put up whatever you want on your own property. If you run a business (like the Suns do) open to the public you many not discriminate against a protected class (like religion). That’s not a (strictly) first amendment issue, that’s a civil rights issue. It also has nothing to do with this topic.

For the record – NONE OF US ASKED THEM TO TAKE DOWN THE CRECHE. Why is it so important to everyone to have exclusive use of the square? Why couldn’t you use the square on just your holiday? Put it up on Dec 25, then take it down. We can put our sign up on Dec. 21st. THAT’S fairness in a multicultural society, and THAT’s what’s allowed for in our constitution.

As far as offense is concerned, we are not offended by the creche, per se. We actually don’t mind if you keep it up, what we care about is equal access as afforded by the first amendment. This idea that it’s somehow offensive to us is rather silly, the council decided that they would rather take down the whole display than work something out.

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http://www.geekexile.com Brian

Oh, and I’d like to thank the Christian who wrote to me to tell me our site design sucks. I want to say that I’m glad there are examples of the faith such as him to remind me why I think that Christianity is morally wrong.

Of course, still don’t care if you put up a creche. We just want the equal opportunity to put up our own holiday respectable and themed sign. There are plenty of other religions as well that celebrate solstice, not just us, as well.

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guiltyhere

“Grow up! If you hold an opinion opposite to what the bast majority of people agree on – then be man enough to accept that not everything will be your own way!”

Sorry that’s not the way things work and thank goodness. Even if 99% of the people in this country believed in slavery there would be laws to protect the minority. Might doesn’t make right my friend.

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johnnyeducator

An old borough wants to celebrate a traditional holiday based on a widespread belief, so you threatened legal action. The result?: Not only did you thwart religious expression, but you quieted your own voice, reducing the free flow of ideas. “Freethinkers” don’t understand that forcing religion out of the public arena, they make themselves the established, arresting dogma, inadvertently pushing everyone a little closer to 1984.

I am not a Christian, but I wonder, if by oppressing the Christian voice, we aren’t chipping away at an undergirding tradition that still upholds our culture, if putting Christian stories away isn’t the equivalent of the philosophical Greeks denying their myths.

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http://www.geekexile.com Brian

-sigh-

We didn’t threaten legal action. We asked to put up our sign on a different part of the monument as the Christian creche. Rather than allowing that, the council decided to not allow the creche. We are talking with our lawyers about the fact that they decided to ban everything (including the creche) rather than hear our petition as we were making it, but we have not decided whether we can or will pursue the matter further.

We didn’t force religion out of the public square – In fact all we did is ask that we join our message to the religion that was already there.

It is the council that decided to discriminate, by banning everything rather than allowing us to post a message that honors fallen vets in time for our solstice celebration.

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pa_we_believers

I don’t think you get it…you guys are really quite helpful. The more this kinda stuff shows up, the stronger and more unified you make the believers……you keep watching and I’ll keep praying for you, one thing though………..you’d better pray right……

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sharon

Let’s see… where are the other religious displays throughout the year? Um. Nowhere. Many communities put up Nativity scenes and that’s it. That is an endorsement of a particular religious creed as acceptable and celebrated in that community. It is exclusionary as well.

Most nonbelievers would absolutely rejoice at an array of displays, including a secular version. But, Christians don’t seem to like it because it points out that there are MANY different beliefs and that feels threatening. Just like any question about their place in our culture.

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sw_freak

Thank you Carl for trying to represent those who have served this country without belief in an all powerful being. I pesonally know athiests who have served and would have appreciated being acknowledged as a freethinking veteran. Unfortunatly, a lot of residence of the borough of Chambersburg view this as a slap in the face of religious expression. They simply refuse to understand that all we were asking for was the right to thank atheist service persons for their dedication to this country. I wonder if any of them would rather have another terrorist attack on this counrty than to have to acknowledge that some of those that protect this country are actually atheist and god (pun intended) forbid, have to thank them. Oh, the horror!

Patrick

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KSempowski

Hello.
My name is Katherine Sempowski. I’m a resident of the Borough of Chambersburg. I know that you feel that you can answer all of our concerns and questions about why this “move for equality” is being played out in our town, but really all you keep doing is acting like victims. That may seem like a cheap shot and completley out of left field, but read your previous posts, almost everyone says, “We did not want the Creche removed.” I’m aware of your organization, I too have friends and acquaintancs who share your beliefs, and i myself am Catholic. You may feel as though my religion may be the driving factor in my quest to reinstate the Creche, but it’s so much more than that. If you “didn’t want the Creche removed” the why do you post this like it’s a victory on your site. I’m well aware that Mr. Silverman is no longer a residence of our area, so why is this even a concern of his? What made him wake up one day, and say “Let’s take a stand, and enter a town we don’t reside in, and try and “respect our atheist veterans.” Is Camp Hill not a big enough town to voice your opinions. I know exactly how you’ll reply to all of my statments. You’ll say “We never intended for the Creche to be removed, we simply wanted equally rights to the square. ” Or possibly, “We just want to honor those, who like us do not believe in a higher power, and we feel as though we should be allowd to do so were we please.” O wait, and how about the ever so popular “First Amendment” statment. When you say your going to seek legal “advice”, of course a council will want to avoid any possible lawsuits, thereinfore taking the so called “easy way out” and only allowing the American Flag and flowers to adorn the fountain. Are you going to go to the council next week, and make them remove the flag too? That may, as you know all to well, offend some peoples that want the flag of their countries flown too. The American Flag alone, must be unjust to correct? It seems like the only thing you have a problem with is organized religion. YOu may not believe in any God, creed, or kind not of this world; but so many more do. I do not disrespect or demean your beliefs, it’s jsut that if you think Christianity is such a burden to see, then what would happen if we thought your “sign” was to? It hypocritical really. Bibles can’t be distributed in some places, the words “under God” removed. What’s next? If our public displays of our God offend you, ignore them. Post your signs, make them 10,000 feet tall, in your own town. I know you’ll respond with “all we wanted was our sign to be displayed equally.” I understand that, how about you get equal representation after the Christmas Holidays, and why wan’t this brought up during VETERANS DAY. Your simply picking the time of year in which religion is most rampent, and trying to prove some “politically correct point.” This is the most hypocritcial group of people i’ve ever meet. Imagine if you were in our shoes. Imagine if every year for 20 years you put up a sign to promote your beliefs, and us awful “Christ believers” came along, and said either share or were seeking legal action. Imagine then that your tradition was put to a stop, because of a group of people that weren’t even from your town. YOU’d fight back to. I know, I know, you’d say “we’d share.” Share this, this country was built on religion. This entire world was built on religion. You believe what you want to believe, but for the past 20 years we havn’t hurt anyone becasue of the manger. NO one was murdered, no riots, no gang fights came from this “christian momument.” The only issue we’ve ever had, occured this year. You’ve decided to take away a tradition. Blame the council…I know you will, but if you were in their shoes, you’d do the same thing. By the, why stop in Chambersburg? Please take your ignorant army and make stops in Carlise, Mechanicsburg, Hershey, Hagerstown, WORLDWIDE. See how many mangers you can remove, how many relgious intolerances you all can truley show, before real “legal advice”, puts you in your place.

Amen.

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KSempowski

I’d also like to respectfully comment and say that you too will meet the same brick walls. Although you believe in nothing, that is still a belief. It may be deemed offensive to some, so in the end we we all lose. NO religious signs will be approved, and niether will any representation organized groups. No one will be represented, because there will be no way to insure political and social correctness. So good job on destroying your own chance to be heard.

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PFC

I am in the middle of Iraq. I fight for freedom. Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Speech. When you step in and tell my town to take down their Nativity Scene, brother, you slapped me in the face. If we’re going to bow down to you, then what is the point of going to war for you? You don’t even live in Chambersburg. And why can’t you just put up with it for ONE MONTH out of the year? You my friend, need to grow up.

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sharon

Ms. Sempowski — That is the point. No religion should be heard. Feel free to do whatever on your own, not as a representative of the whole. And I disagree about the representation. If we all are allowed to participate if we want, it IS fair.

Wondering if all the people who think nonbelievers are offended (which we are not) by the Christian symbols would like an Islamic, Hindu, Wiccan or Jewish display in the public square. Would you put up with that for ONE MONTH out of the year?

As much as you would like to think there is one religion in this country, there is not. I realize that nonbelief is offensive to you more, perhaps, than belief in an alternate deity. I don’t know why. For a municipality, state or country to refrain from preferentially endorsing ANY belief protects ALL beliefs. That should be something all people in a democracy should support.

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KSempowski

I’m not sure Ms. Sharon if you are aware but we have allowed many religions to show their pride. In 1997 we had a large sign depicting a number of religious symbols from different orgins. You are completly ignorant to our town and its customs. I am NOT offened by other peoples beliefs. I do not think there is ONE religion in this country. Im not an uneducated child. PLEASE look back into our county’s past years and you’d see NO predjudice. The issue here wasn’t intolerance. The issue is your “fight for equality” really elimanated any chance ANY creed has to celebrate our most importat time of year.

Are you a residence of our town. YOU seem to me to be fighting a battle that you know nothing about. It’s completly one sided. All you see is your “alternative” beliefs, or lack thereof. STOP acting liek a victim. STOP saying your the most unbiased people. Your “beliefs” do not offend me, but I find them very demeaning to mine. Do you have any children? Are they not off for the “Holidays?” I guess none of them recieve any gifts, and to them the true magic of the holidays was never around.

I am open for any educated, fact-driven disscussion. DO NOT make assumptions when you know nothing, but your own “real life beliefs”

God Bless

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DogmaBites

PFC – I’m a Navy Vet and an atheist. Pat Tillman, who was killed in Afghanistan, was an atheist too. We have the right to have sign representing our view as much as you do. Why couldn’t the town just put up with the atheist sign?

Your discrimination shows clearly. You are not willing to do the same thing you ask of us. If we should put up with Christian symbols and signs, you should put up with atheist symbols and signs. Why don’t you? You talk about freedom of religion and freedom of speech. If that’s the case, let us exercise our freedoms by putting up our sign.

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Maxxie

We believe in Nothing? Atheists believe in a lot of things. Atheists believe being friendly, helping our fellow man, and getting together with friends and family is a great thing. We get together on and enjoy Thanksgiving, too. Holidays are great. We put up trees, too. Jeremiah 10:1-4 says Xmas trees are against God’s wishes, so naturally, since we don’t believe in any god, decorating a tree is a great idea.

Hey PFC. Taxpayer properties that promote religion are a slap in our faces, too. It’s a slap in atheist veteran and some of your fellow atheist soldiers. The government should favor neither viewpoint. Check out your friendly atheist military folk at http://www.maaf.info. There are MANY atheists in foxholes.

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pgnesmith

Maxxie, Leave quoting the Bible to those that actually understand it.

If you read the entire passage you will see that they are referring to building an idol out of wood for WORSHIP. It is forbidden to worship anything else besides God. The act of putting a tree in your house isn’t what it is referring to. Most Christians believe that it is a celebration of Jesus’ birthday. But you have it wrong. Although I am encouraged that you read the Bible. Please take more time to read it fully and mabey you will truly understand it.

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- http://www.geekexile.com Brian
  
  Err – I’m fairly certain that most of us here understand the bible – When I was growing up, the importance of reading it was pretty much drilled into me, even though most people didn’t actually read it, I’ve read it from cover to cover more than a few times.
  
  In any case, in all my readings, I’ve failed to come up with the Christmas tree being a recommended method of celebrating Jesus’ birth (Of course, the bible doesn’t have much in general about celebrating any particular Christian holiday, but c’est le vie.)
  
  In any case, I suggest you read up on the tree before telling other people they don’t know what they are talking about:
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree
  
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shawmutt

Pgnesmith, oh great pharasee, it also states in the Bible that no graven image should be made–like, oh I don’t know, big plastic dolls that represent your God.

And why is baby Jesus white? Shouldn’t he be Middle Eastern?

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juliebgood

Personally, this atheist vet (USAR, Ret.) is glad that somebody is acknowledging our existence and encouraging us to join the public forum.

It seems like a lot of people in these mid-state parts think America-loving atheist soldiers are about as real and worthy of recognition as unicorns (or bisexuals and English majors, depending on what part of the interwebs you’re from) :p

Thank you to Carl Silverman for trying to get us represented, and shame on Chambersburg for taking their toys and going home!

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stopandthink

It’s amazing how we’re all overlooking the real point here.

I haven’t seen one person on any of these sites saying that they oppose the freedoms that we have to express diverse religious and political views. If that is true, (and I beg you to really question yourself on this), then we’re all saying that we would have sat happily by and allowed the Atheist symbol/flag to fly beside the nativity scene. We also would have stood happily by while organizations like the KKK, or antisemitic groups displayed their propaganda (note: I am in no way equating Atheism to racial intolerance…two totally different things).

If you still stand by your belief in this freedom, then both the Christians AND the Atheists should be working TOGETHER to tell the Council that they cannot rob us of this freedom. They cannot “decide for us” that this decision is “for our own good…to protect us”.

The fact that we’re still blaming each other and not demanding our freedom from the Council, makes me think that it’s not really about freedom after all. Please think about this, and if nothing else, make sure you are being honest with yourself.

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satanhimself

stopandthink, you are correct. One would think that we would be getting calls from the Christian legal groups offereing to represent us in a suit to get the fountain area opened for all viewpoints, at least through the next few monnths. We haven’t gotten any calls yet, but we haven’t asked yet. We have another option first. Stay tuned.

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Chambersburg Borough Council decides nativity scene must be removed from Memorial Square fountain area

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